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Oct 13, 2005, 04:05 AM // 04:05
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#41 |
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Pre-Searing Cadet
Join Date: Sep 2005
Guild: ORLY - Legions of Lueshi
Profession: N/Me
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yay new arguments. Btw, I like how you guys can discuss without degenerating to name calling. Good stuff
 1. People who are run get to lategame areas without the necessary experience to make them good players. These newbie players affect my gameplay, thus running is detrimental to the Guild Wars Community. - First, anytime you decide to group with other human players, it is your own conscious decision, therefore you must live with the consequences. If you find a <lvl 20 at the Southern Shiverpeak missions, you know not to take them along with you. Again, any right-minded person can recognize they most likely did not arrive there through the storyline normally as the storyline basically forces you to be level 20. At every mission there is a general range of levels that are doing it so it should be fairly obvious is someone was ran there. A lvl 8 at Sanctum Cay probably is not too legitimate. Some may say that the party was created by someone else, thus have no control over the party setup. I would disagree with that because you always have the option of quitting that party. If you stay within the party it's your own fault because you consciously decided to stay, most likely because you are impatient to complete the mission and don't feel like taking the time to find a better group. - I agree with Sanji that the paths to get to a mission doesn't exactly teach people how to effectively use their characters. I've had a warrior/monk say that he was a boon healer at the Ring of Fire mission in all seriousness. Point is, you can arrive at most places without being particularly skilled. Heck, you can even take henchies and if you minorly help, you will get through almost all places. Not having runners will not really bar dumb people from progressing. Again in Sanji's words, it's a speed bump rather than a road block. 2. Running causes begging for materials and money at Droknars Forge/other places. - Begging occurs regardless of runneres in all honesty. Sure, I will acknowledge that runners may add to it, but I sincerely doubt banning runners would decrease it significantly. Just by taking a look at Ascalon City, we have people beginning for materials, money, weapons, etc. all over the channels and I really hope they didn't pay anyone to run them there. Wanting more, bigger, better things is all part of human nature and it would be unfair to pin the blame on runners. There are many people asking for money to "finish their armor" as level 20s in Droknars Forge. Furthermore, they are not taxing your resources if you just don't pay attention to them. If you go out of your way to interact with them by flaming them, responding, or donating materials, that again is your conscious decision. Guild Wars is an instanced game where most of your time I would say is spent with your own group on a quest or mission, so I don't think this should be THAT big of a problem. 3. Running causes twinkers in PvE arenas. - Ok, I will grant you that twinkers are a result of having runners available to take them to the higher level areas to cap the skills. However, I don't think it's fair to blame the runners for what the people who are run do as a result of that service. This can be analogous to a person who sells knives for a living being blamed for one of their clients murdering someone a year after the purchase. Knives and running both have a useful purpose, knives for cutting food and running for getting experienced players to certain points, but both can be taken to the negative side, killing and twinking. Both the knife vender and runner are providing a service; what the client does after recieving their services should not be their fault. - As Sanji said, PvE arenas have always been messed up and really it's become a place for people who want to use skills with limited attribute points. Since running is a PvE aspect, I don't think that bringing this into the PvP world is necessarily fair. 4. People should not be run because they are missing content. The end doesn't justify the means and the journey is better than the reward. [The game is only a few month old, whats the rush anyways....] - Well I think as you said, its their perogative to choose how they play and since you stated it yourself, no point in delving into it further. I will address the last sentence, saying what's the rush. Guild Wars was not designed to have a lengthy PvE world, in fact it was basically made so it WOULDN'T have one as it focused on PvP. Even though the game is a few months old, a very good portion of the players have logged 500+ hours with quite a few with 900+. Because the game seriously only takes about 75-90 hours of gameplay to really finish if you don't sit in town for hours idle etc. , so when going through your 3rd character, i guess getting to the parts you enjoy would actually enhance your gaming experience rather than detract from it. Repetitiveness isn't exactly exciting and though the GW world is awesomely beautiful, it really isn't terribly exciting to go through. yayness, have a good day people. If I missed some arguments let me know. Post refutations to mine so if I am wrong, I'll change my mind
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Oct 13, 2005, 04:59 AM // 04:59
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#42 |
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Wilds Pathfinder
Join Date: May 2005
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Well, that's a long post so you'll forgive if I don't quote. I would say there are alot of valid points, but in my opinion they are valid in a narrow scope of the variety of people who get run.
A couple of points- Newbies and running. Yes I do think it makes a difference. Firstly, aside from the lack of experience I don't think they take the game as seriously as someone who took the time. More importantly, with all the talk about running, it gives the impression that that is the way to play the game. "We're not going to invite you unless you have this and that" ect. Begging and money. I think it does more than that I think it encourages gold buying not in the game. You may respond that that will happen anyways, but so what? Dragging someone through the zones few can argue is a allowable exploit (and I know running is not a exploit), so how much of a leap is it to buy gold on Ebay? I dunno it seems that if your playstyle is to rush, you might as well have the same attitude to making gold. Everyone complains about bots, but if there was no one buying gold there'd be no need for them. Missing out on gameplay. I guess I brought that up, but I did point out that that is just my gamestyle. If someone doesn't want to stop and smell the roses fine by me. BUT I notice that there are people who have rushed through the game and are complaining that they are bored...oh well. I guess what I'm trying to say is I'm sure there are valid reasons for wanting to run, but that doesn't make it right because overall I think it does more harm than good. I do think it sucks that inorder to have a good PvP experience you have to go through multiple times to unlock everything. Still i don't think that the game is so incredibly hard or time consuming that you need to be run. Since running is allowable, there's nothing I can really do, so I find it amusing that people get so defensive when you speak out against it. I do respect your opinion and a few others because you are willing to speak about it rationally. |
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Oct 13, 2005, 05:00 AM // 05:00
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#43 |
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Banned
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Macau
Guild: www.exilesofdarksteel.com
Profession: E/
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i hate the " i did the best skam "
RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOING kids are destroing GW cumunity |
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Oct 13, 2005, 05:36 AM // 05:36
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#44 |
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Lion's Arch Merchant
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: garden of the gods, CO
Guild: Over Powered
Profession: N/
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i have a runner. i made him coz i have 2 accounts and i wanted to get the good armor for my other account. i have 2 computers so this is rather easy. it was before the update so you needed to get to all the priests to UAS, so i felt running was a legit service. never had any complaints and only got stiffed 3 times. would you believe i got tips that offest the rippoffs tho? some people are really cool. the only complaint against runners is that people like to go to ascalon arena and abuse the end game armor against new players. i am 100% against that, but i could never tell of that was the intent of the people i ran (besides myself).
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Oct 13, 2005, 05:41 AM // 05:41
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#45 | ||||||
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Frost Gate Guardian
Join Date: May 2005
Profession: Me/
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Quote:
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Certainly there are complete idiots who roam the Earth and do not get rushed anywhere. The fact that these creatures exist does not negate the truth that there are idiots who get rushed and that rushing can contribute significantly to their ignorance. Just as certianly there are non-idiots aplenty who get rushed and know how to play the game perfectly well. The general fact of the existence of these creatures does not mean rushing is a valid, moral, upstanding means of play. All it means is that smart people generally tend to make smart choices (and we infer that speeding our way through the game is a smart choice due to time being the most limited resource we have in our lives). There are many who would argue that the negative aspects of rushing/running outweigh the positive aspects. Regardless of which side of the issue we stand on, runners are profiting through a process that negatively affects the gaming experiences of many people. Quote:
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Also, your analogy is false. Enabling a morally reprehensible act, even one that we inadvertantly enable a year later, is still, in itself, morally reprehensible. Should we extend your argument to guns, and hypothetically posit that Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris (the Columbine killers) waited a year before enacting their crime, does that time lapse make the crime of selling them guns less reprehensible? I should hope not. At any rate, as I hope my own analogy illustrates, it is patently absurd to compare running/rushing with anything from the real world. Choose better analogies. It is perfectly fair to place the blame for the level 10 and 15 arena mess directly on the feet of the runners. If running/rushing were not an option, elite skills and Droknars armor would be fantastically rare in these arenas, and those arenas would be much more fair. However, since people who have a problem with these arenas can simply avoid the issue entirely by leveling, the mess that is pre-20th level PvP is not such a bad thing. The real sadness is that for a primarily focused PvE player, the chances of improving our PvP ability is severely limited -- PvP players have significant equipment advantages over PvE players in the level 20 arenas, and there is no "fair" arena for PvE players who have not been rushed prior to the level 20 arenas. Quote:
But since the thrust of your argument is that rushers provide a valuable service to the community, I must agree. But no one but the most die-hard haters of rushers is disagreeing with this point -- it's obvious that we want the best armor and best skills as quickly as possible. The real issue under debate is whether or not the negative consequences outweigh the value. Myself, I believe the PvE world would be better without rushing, and rushing is bad for the game. But since the PvP crowd has to put up with newbs and idiots, the PvE world should grin and bear our version, too. That doesn't mean we have to *like* runners, but, concurrently, a PvP player doesn't have to *like* a guildless, rank 0 Wa/Mo, either. But no one is making a profit by plaguing the PvP world with those rank 0 Wa/Mo's; if only we could say the same thing in the PvE world. Appologies for length, ranting, spelling, and grammar. It's late and I must teach tomorrow, so I lack time for a reasonable edit. cmb |
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Oct 13, 2005, 03:08 PM // 15:08
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#46 | |
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Wilds Pathfinder
Join Date: May 2005
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Quote:
Although they are dependant, they are 2 different playstyles. It seems to me in that Anet has come to the conclusion that it's far easier to allow people to use the exploit of being dragged through than to try and balance the game. I can see how people get confused that it is mostly PvP. Because the only end result is having a more powerful PvP character, no rewards from having unique items (since you can get them at just about any level). Last edited by Dax; Oct 13, 2005 at 03:22 PM // 15:22.. |
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Oct 13, 2005, 03:45 PM // 15:45
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#47 |
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Lady Fie
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Sapporo
Guild: Tha Skulls [Ts]
Profession: D/W
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Okay, Shadow?
I doubt that being run to one specific place inspires the urge to ask for things that people can't afford. It happens in Ascalon for God's sake. Don't try and turn Droknars into this center of panhandling and noobery you make it out to be....  Begging goes on in pretty much every town, Lions, Henge, Forge, Ascalon, even Springs. It happens. It's not the fault of the runners. |
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Oct 13, 2005, 03:55 PM // 15:55
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#48 |
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Pre-Searing Cadet
Join Date: Oct 2005
Profession: W/Mo
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It almost sounds like we are blamming runners for the state of the game here people.
Last week it was invinci monks... Week before farmers.. Week before god I dont know ebay or someting like it lol. I run my friends and my guild. They all can play the game extremely well. Do it for free. Most likely you've been healed by monks that have been run, or partied with people that have been run. Was it the guy that got you killed or the guy that saved your ass that was run.... you tell me. Playing the game entirely does not gurantee how that player will behave. In fact human nature, personality and attitude dictates the outcomes on missions more than any skills and armour combos I can dream of. At least with a good attitude skills can be learnt anytime, even during a mission. Have seen this in many missions with lower level characters. If you want to nerf and cull start with the OP, what a shitty thing to do to another player. I would take a million more runners anyday hands down for a million less people like that in the game. |
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Oct 13, 2005, 04:42 PM // 16:42
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#49 |
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Krytan Explorer
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Shadar Logoth
Guild: The Legendary Majestic 12
Profession: N/
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Runners are not responsible for every single thing wrong with the game but they are responsible for adding to the problems. They are the gasoline on the fire so to speak.
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Oct 13, 2005, 05:20 PM // 17:20
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#50 |
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Frost Gate Guardian
Join Date: May 2005
Location: In a van down by the river :)
Guild: After Dark Club [REAL]
Profession: W/Mo
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You know if I have a group and if someone even acts like they could be a problem I do have the little button that says "kick", I have had too many players join my group, say come on lets go, hurry up, etc.. They earn the use of the button because I am almost positive their behavior after we get into a game will not be much better and they are probably a "Leroy".
I really don't care to hear about drok's or Liona Arch being the center of "Can I have free please" you always have and always will have people that just won't get off their ass and go out and work for their own gold and items. Just because you are poor does not mean you HAVE to be, you CHOOSE to be and to me they are no different than the people that stand on the corner with a sign that says "will work for food" only problem is when you offer them work it's like "yeah buddy whatever, I can beg and get more money than working for it" People beg for crap in pre-sear ascalon so don't tell me it's any different in post-sear, they are lazy and I have a button that I can turn off the "beggers channel" if I choose. There is a polite way to ask someone that joins your group what skills they have brought, it is very easy to state that you want to bring along skills that will compliment their set and if they appear to only have skills that a truly new player would have you can always kick them from the group before you begin. This is the usual type of person you will see in THK spamming "I HATE THIS GAME, MONKS SUCK, NEED A MONK THAT KNOWS HOW TO HEAL!!" Whenever you need a good laugh just head over there and wait, one of them will show up soon, they always do.  But sitting around and blaming runners for every little crappy "Leroy" that joins your group is just wrong, if I can spot one after a bit I know others should be able to. Last edited by mm00re; Oct 13, 2005 at 05:24 PM // 17:24.. |
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Oct 13, 2005, 07:04 PM // 19:04
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#51 |
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Pre-Searing Cadet
Join Date: Oct 2005
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I would like to humbly add a few thoughts.
I enjoy guild wars very much, and have played for many hours (to me). However, I am limited by my job, house, family, and other real world concerns. I play approximately 5 - 7 hours a week. I am content to not be as skilled at the game as other people. It is my niche. I believe, however, that I carry myself in a respectable manner, both in and out of the game. I can honestly say, I have never had a bad Pick-up group. I have had many unsuccessful Pick-up groups, but never one that I regretted being a part of. If you can accept that a person isn't as good at the game as you are, try to work with them, etc., everyone is likely to have a good time. If you do not have the patience for people to understand, than you should try to limit your exposure (via a guild, friends list) to people who you are familiar with (as you cannot know whether a person is "good" or not). I was run to Droknor's forge after acquiring level 20. Having played Diablo, I was used to leveling up my character before playing missions (I now realize this was unnecessary, as the missions tend to provide plenty of experience). I had been told about a skill that I wanted to try out that was found after Thunderhead Keep, "Charge", so I wanted to get there. I played Thunderhead, and the Pick-up group beat it in the first try. It wasn't easy, by any stretch, but working together, we succeeded. And most of all, everyone enjoyed it (or atleast professed that they did after we won). Last edited by FelixFirefly; Oct 13, 2005 at 07:07 PM // 19:07.. |
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Oct 13, 2005, 08:05 PM // 20:05
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#52 |
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Furnace Stoker
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: United States
Guild: Dark Side Ofthe Moon [DSM]
Profession: E/
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Person feelings about running, as long as it's not to be an "ubber" person in the Ascalon / Yak's arena's run all you want to get better armor, start unlocking your elite skills for PvP (again not the Ascalon / Yak arena) better armor for doing normal Pve.
As long as anet keeps this option open, anet allows it. Some kind of runners I do hate but I keep it to myself, I play this game the way it allows me, the way I want it. |
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Oct 13, 2005, 08:06 PM // 20:06
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#53 | |
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Forge Runner
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Alaska
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Quote:
runners rule, I run myself and guild mates around. Still not able to do the drok run though. We all play how we want to. As for "haha I pwned a runner" poster... I call you a scammer. |
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Oct 13, 2005, 08:23 PM // 20:23
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#54 |
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Furnace Stoker
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: United States
Guild: Dark Side Ofthe Moon [DSM]
Profession: E/
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To credit the OP, he did ask for it to be free and the runner agreed and forgot / didn't realize it. So the op is in his right to not pay, now the op should not be rubbing it in. IMHO.
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Oct 13, 2005, 08:35 PM // 20:35
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#55 | |
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Academy Page
Join Date: Sep 2005
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Quote:
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Oct 13, 2005, 09:51 PM // 21:51
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#56 |
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Frost Gate Guardian
Join Date: Jun 2005
Guild: looking for a guild
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Just in case there's still some life left in this horse, let me beat it a different way.
The playstyle in earlier areas is limited greatly by a smaller set of skills to bring with you. Sure around Yak's Bend it's good to bring Healing Breeze. In Ring of Fire and especially PvP, Healing Breeze is a horrible spell. Can you really tell me that the playstyle that you're learning early in the game will make you a truly valuable addition later on in the game? I don't know the answer, but I'd guess that bringing a crappy build in a later mission causing you to receive a beat-down (either from the mission or from your team) taught you more than walking through an easy mission with that same crappy build. EDIT: As far as the OP goes - yeah kind of a jackball thing to do, but the runner should have been more careful. I always make sure my passengers agree to the destination and the price before we even set off. No good to report someone if you don't have screenies that prove they scammed you. Last edited by Bugeater; Oct 13, 2005 at 09:54 PM // 21:54.. |
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Oct 13, 2005, 11:26 PM // 23:26
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#57 |
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Lion's Arch Merchant
Join Date: Sep 2005
Guild: Sand Scorpions[SS]
Profession: R/Me
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I run for money everynow and then. I'm fine with people not liking the whole running business. The only thing I have a problem with is how after I adverstise someone starts denouncing running and how much they hate it blah blah blah. I mean if you hate it thats cool but do you have to tell everyone? Just a small complaint I have lol.
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Oct 14, 2005, 01:15 AM // 01:15
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#58 | |
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Wilds Pathfinder
Join Date: May 2005
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Quote:
Anyhow, I would have little pity someone getting scammed from making money on a cheap exploit....just rewards.
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Oct 14, 2005, 02:43 AM // 02:43
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#59 |
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Academy Page
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Canada
Guild: Trance of Asgard
Profession: E/Mo
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My personal feelings on running are as follows:
After you've played through the game, I have no issue. My problem is when first-time players who haven't even HEARD of Droknar's (And yes, I've seen them) are getting run. I also disagree with people getting run to go crazy at Ascalon arena. That just pisses me off. |
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Oct 14, 2005, 03:07 AM // 03:07
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#60 | |
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Wilds Pathfinder
Join Date: May 2005
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Quote:
The problem is they don't... it's something that is totally uncontrolled. Its all a matter of perception, why bother to play the game through the traditional way when you see that many people do not? Putting yourself in the shoes of a new player, why is it ok that a person plays a game through a second time get to do it.... oh wait I can. Last edited by Dax; Oct 14, 2005 at 03:10 AM // 03:10.. |
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